Counterbalance

[milkmanjoe]

Originally Posted by sdmc530

NO DOUBT!! Yeah, the black gun is taking over but the shotgun is a better tool. When a "bad guy" hears the racking of a shell in a shotgun its game over.....way under appreiated!!

Actually a bad guy probably wouldn't know the difference in sound from a shottie racking to a lamp falling over. The old "rack the shotgun scares them away" myth is just that, a myth. Gun should be chambered anyway, if ya wanna scare a bad guy shoot at him. That MIGHT work, many thugs have no regard for human life, even their own. In that case, take a lesson from , shoot them till you ain't scared no more.

Originally Posted by TLE2

I understand that Clint Smith says that a pistol is what you use to fight you're way back to the rifle you shouldn't have left. Wonder if that applies to shottys?

I would say that in personal(non-military) self(home) defense, any long gun.
Pistol rounds are actually piss poor for putting people down.

[milkmanjoe]

We use this one for HD, adjustable stock for my youngest son. Door breacher points have been filed sharp. Loads are rifled slugs and OO Buck, handloaded hot.

[IMG][/IMG]

[BlackKnight]

Originally Posted by milkmanjoe

Actually a bad guy probably wouldn't know the difference in sound from a shottie racking to a lamp falling over. The old "rack the shotgun scares them away" myth is just that, a myth.

I'm sorry, sir, but I'm going to wholehearted disagree. I know from first hand experience that it does work.
When I was assigned to this particular task force we were designated to hit certain "hot spots". So one of the strategies I came up with was to bring the shotgun. I had it fully loaded with one in the breach, but open. As soon as I got out of the car I closed it. Trust me when I tell you they knew the sound and I've preempted a lot of pursuits that way. What they didn't know was that I couldn't shoot them if they ran. We also preempted a lot of them from going to their guns in their waist and took a lot of illegal guns of the street. Thank God!
I also got the unofficial nickname of "Officer Shotty" for a short period.

[jmlutz]

Here's mine, it's an 870 clone, I just love it.

[milkmanjoe]

Originally Posted by BlackKnight

I'm sorry, sir, but I'm going to wholehearted disagree. I know from first hand experience that it does work.
When I was assigned to this particular task force we were designated to hit certain "hot spots". So one of the strategies I came up with was to bring the shotgun. I had it fully loaded with one in the breach, but open. As soon as I got out of the car I closed it. Trust me when I tell you they knew the sound and I've preempted a lot of pursuits that way. What they didn't know was that I couldn't shoot them if they ran. We also preempted a lot of them from going to their guns in their waist and took a lot of illegal guns of the street. Thank God!
I also got the unofficial nickname of "Officer Shotty" for a short period.

It may have worked for you, there is no math to make me trust it. If there was that would be all you need, rack a shottie and the BG's give up or run. Thugs, as you know, tend to carry pistols and have little to no knowledge of shotguns. Out in the country of SC a shotgun is laughed at as a bird gun, mini 14's are behind car seats. Rack a shottie to scare someone and take a 30 round mag incoming. And they are not afraid. And they alter their guns( some with AK's) to full auto. You have the same in Camden, New Jersey. Rack one there and see the results. Hell, a home intruder can have hearing like mine, wouldn't even hear the gun racking. Or his heart pounding so hard he couldn't hear the gun racking. I don't try to stay alive by making scary sounds a BG might not even interpret. I stick with, if you want to scare a BG, shoot at them. Even then, their dis-respect for life, they might not care. I have been shot, I put my faith in bullets, not noises. That's just my world.

[BlackKnight]

I'm not condoning putting trust only in noises. It's like physical tactics. Certain things are going to work mostly on compliant and semi-compliant people. I knew going in that was the case where the racking worked. It's a strategy I managed to successfully use. But I was also prepared to use deadly force if necessary. I was dependent on that tactic alone.
But, to say something is never going to work well that's one dimensional thinking in my opinion. My issue is I don't believe in absolutes, not when it comes to self defense or what I call active tactics. What may work for one situation may not work for another.
Btw, while no one can deny Camden is a hell hole, I was raised in and continue to work in the 3rd most populated city in the State, Paterson. Camden just happens to get the better press.
Anyway, sorry for the thread drift.

[milkmanjoe]

Originally Posted by BlackKnight

I'm not condoning putting trust only in noises. It's like physical tactics. Certain things are going to work mostly on compliant and semi-compliant people. I knew going in that was the case where the racking worked. It's a strategy I managed to successfully use. But I was also prepared to use deadly force if necessary. I was dependent on that tactic alone.
But, to say something is never going to work well that's one dimensional thinking in my opinion. My issue is I don't believe in absolutes, not when it comes to self defense or what I call active tactics. What may work for one situation may not work for another.
Btw, while no one can deny Camden is a hell hole, I was raised in and continue to work in the 3rd most populated city in the State, Paterson. Camden just happens to get the better press.
Anyway, sorry for the thread drift.

I think it is a good drift, Dave went the way of the shottie and we are staying on the shottie. You also have the "benefit", of LE vehicles, uniforms, maybe even vocal LEO's with you. I use "benefit" loosely yet carefully, harm's way is harm's way. But average people basically self urinate when they see the cherries on a LEO vehicle, or hear the authoritave voice of an experienced LEO. The racking of a shottie could be anyone slamming a car door, LEO's have visuals that speak volumes. Let's try a home invasion, no LEO's involved. Would your experience say that racking a shottie is going to spook (probably multiples) in a residential home invasion? I am not being argumantative, this is a need for experienced knowledge.

[BlackKnight]

Originally Posted by milkmanjoe

I think it is a good drift, Dave went the way of the shottie and we are staying on the shottie. You also have the "benefit", of LE vehicles, uniforms, maybe even vocal LEO's with you. I use "benefit" loosely yet carefully, harm's way is harm's way. But average people basically self urinate when they see the cherries on a LEO vehicle, or hear the authoritave voice of an experienced LEO. The racking of a shottie could be anyone slamming a car door, LEO's have visuals that speak volumes. Let's try a home invasion, no LEO's involved. Would your experience say that racking a shottie is going to spook (probably multiples) in a residential home invasion? I am not being argumantative, this is a need for experienced knowledge.

First of let me address the part I highlighted. You're not being argumentative at all and I'm sorry if I come across that way. Not my intention. I just now purposely switched to my lap top (as opposed to my Ipad) to make sure I typed correctly. This is one of those conversation we would enjoy having with our favorites drinks (milk for you and whiskey for me ) and a cigar.
Anyway, if I would were to use a shotgun for defense in a home invasion there would be no "warning." There would be some lead going on target.
Again, that supports my argument (discussion) in that different scenarios call for different tactics.
And to support your argument (discussion) I know all the visual and auditory cues are not always going to work out in the street as well, especially if I'm dealing with an EDP or someone high on something. Then, my tactics will have to change.
Not everything works for everything, but not all tactics are useless either.

EDIT: Let me add that I love these type of discussions. I'm dealing here with adults of varying experience. Trust me when I tell you guys I learn a lot from you guys. You should see some of the other forums I used to visit. I gave up trying to deal with them.

EDIT #2: I also forgot to mention my home shotgun is a Benelli M1 Super 90. So racking the slide is a moot point.

[TLE2]

Racking the slide may not stop an intrusion, but it accomplishes one thing: loads a round in the chamber.

[milkmanjoe]

Originally Posted by BlackKnight

First of let me address the part I highlighted. You're not being argumentative at all and I'm sorry if I come across that way. Not my intention. I just now purposely switched to my lap top (as opposed to my Ipad) to make sure I typed correctly. This is one of those conversation we would enjoy having with our favorites drinks (milk for you and whiskey for me ) and a cigar.
Anyway, if I would were to use a shotgun for defense in a home invasion there would be no "warning." There would be some lead going on target.
Again, that supports my argument (discussion) in that different scenarios call for different tactics.
And to support your argument (discussion) I know all the visual and auditory cues are not always going to work out in the street as well, especially if I'm dealing with an EDP or someone high on something. Then, my tactics will have to change.
Not everything works for everything, but not all tactics are useless either.

EDIT: Let me add that I love these type of discussions. I'm dealing here with adults of varying experience. Trust me when I tell you guys I learn a lot from you guys. You should see some of the other forums I used to visit. I gave up trying to deal with them.

EDIT #2: I also forgot to mention my home shotgun is a Benelli M1 Super 90. So racking the slide is a moot point.

I love these discussions too! There is a BIG difference between this forum and others. Here we can have a drink(whiskey for me too, plz) and put out different scenarios. I dislike the other places where the "I know it all and your opinion doesn't count" is the general attitude. Yup, I get it, saw what you saw on other forums. Plus we have here, he has seen the same and is darn good at keeping COTEP life in line.
I do think you will find most people won't depend on anything visual or vocal in a SD situation. But, with you being an LEO, your situations have alot more variables. I have me and two young sons, a young daughter and a wife who shoots a little. In a parking lot they will go low and scatter, we have key words. At home the boys have shotties and gather the others in a safe room, call 911, while I keep the only access to that room clear with an M1A/1911 combo. Creeps against a family is the same as "I don't care about your life and I know you are sh*t scared, against a family". "cept I ain't sh*t scared.

In a parking lot you have a marked car, uniform(two very effective tools), and maybe backup. The possibilities of the "scaredness" being reversed on to the BG's shoulders are endless. More then likely they will try to escape, knowiing you have firepower and they will end up in the big house. In my case they have little to fear until I start shooting and moving, then they will wake up.

So, we have two different lifestyles. But in the dark, in the middle of the night, at your house, the window breaks, your eyes clear and you see the silhouette(s) standing/moving in the living room, we become the same person. Light that Benelli up and ask questions later. I love the Castle Doctrine.